talin denizcilik müzesi

şehirde bir sürü müze var; ben sadece üçünü ziyaret ettim. bunlardan ikisi geçtiğimiz yıllarda europa nostra ödülünü almışlar. bunlardan ilki denizcilik müzesi:

denizcilik müzesi limanda mevcut gemi hangarları kullanılarak tasarlanmış. muhteşem bir şey. en az yarım günü alıyor hakkıyla gezmek.

 

müzenin şöyle bir konsepti var: tek bir büyük hacim içerisinde alt ve üst kat olarak iki katman oluşturulmuş. bileti giriş katından aldıktan sonra üst kata çıkıyorsunuz ve hacim boyunca yüksekliği bu kata göre ayarlanmış yürüme yollarından ilerliyorsunuz. bu kat deniz yüzeyi; alt kat ise deniz yüzeyinin altı. dolayısıyla deniz yüzeyi üst kat seviyesinde olduğu için de sergilenen bütün kayıklar ve gemiler tavana asılmış; havadalar; hiç biri zemine oturmuyor.
hacmin içinde bir tane de denizaltı var. o da havada; alt kata indiğinizde altına girebiliyorsunuz.
bir deniz müzesi ancak bu kadar anlamlı ve güzel bir fikirle tasarlanabilirdi.

denizaltının içine girmek mümkün. her bir parçası olduğu gibi korunmuş. sadece filmlerden bildiğim bir taşıtın içine girmek, en ücra köşelerinde dolaşmak, tuvalet nasıldı, nerelerde yatak ranzaları vardı, torpidolar ne menem bir şeylerdir, nerede yemek pişer, mutfak tezgahı ne kadardır gibi bütün detayları birebir yaşantılamak çok etkileyiciydi.

deniz müzesinin etkisi sadece bina ve sergileme mantığı ile sınırlı değil. müzeden çıkıp rıhtıma gittiğinizde, aynı biletle başka gemilerin içini de gezebiliyorsunuz. bunlar arasında bir tanesi var ki, o da en az denizlatı kadar etkileyici: buz kırma gemisi.
geminin içinde kat kat aşağı inip, bütün makinelerini; mürettebat katında geminin kıç tarafındaki 8 yataklı odalardan burun tarafına doğru rütbeler yükseldikçe nasıl bir yataklı oda, bir yatak odası + bir ön mekan, bir yatak odası + toplantı odası + küvetli banyoya terfi edildiğini; en kıdemlilerin süitlerinin yemekhanenin yanında konumlandığını görebiliyorsunuz.

müzenin bahçesinde estonya'da yapılmış ilk denizaltının rekonstrüksiyonu da olduğu gibi, sovyetler zamanında kalma kamyonlar da sergileniyor..

talin izlenimleri

bir an önce görmek istediğim şehirler listemde değildi talin; hatta hiç istekli değildim orayı ziyaret etmeye. çünkü bazı fotoğraflarından aşırı temiz, yeni boyalı, sanki dün inşa edilmiş gibi restore edilmiş ve kitle turizmine sunulmuş izlenimi edinmiştim.
prag, benim gördüğüm 1994 yılındaki yorgun, eski-miş, kirli ama her köşesinden yaşanmışlık akan halinden günümüzde çok şey yitirdi; şimdiki rengarenk şekerli bir düğün pastası hali beni hiç çekmiyor. talin'den de benzer bir koku alıyordum.

talin'e bu kadar mesafeli durmamın önündeki seti, aldığım bir haber bir anda yıktı: estonyalı aşkın besteci arvo pärt ile sahne büyücüsü robert wilson'ın "aadama passioon" (adem'in ızdırabı) adlı ortak projesi.
pärt'in 80. doğum yılı kutlamaları çerçevesinde sahnelenen "aadama passioon"ın 12-16 mayıs tarihlerinde dünya prömiyeri gerçekleşti. ben de bu vesile ile, tanımadan burun kıvırdığım bir şehri keşfederek sevmeyi öğrendim.

 

talin'in, korktuğum gibi aşırı restore edilmiş, gözalıcı temizlikte paketlenmiş ve kitle turizmine sunulmuş (her gün bir kaç kurvaziyer gemi limana demirliyor ve akın akın turist grupları çekirge misali şehri zapetmeye koşuyor; neyse ki akşama doğru 5'ten sonra etraf sakinliyor) bir tarafı yok değil, ama neyse ki eski kentin hala metruk kalmış, eskilikten dökülen, üzerinde yaşanmışlık akan ve yerli halkın kendi halinde yaşadığı bölgeleri de mevcut. yani, ne mutlu ki talin bütünüyle bir müze kente dönüşmemiş.

eski kenti tam bir günde; sabahtan akşama, arada kahve-pasta, yemek, kahve-içki soluklanmalarını da ihmal etmeyerek, küçük bir müzeye girerek ya da bir sahafta raflar arasında dolaşarak, bir-iki kilise ziyaret ederek ve hatta bir tanesinin 140 basamaklı kulesine çıkmaya vakit bulacak şekilde gezebilirsiniz.

 
eski kent sınırları içindeki aziz nikola kilisesi özellikle görmeye değer yerlerden biri.
aziz nikola kilisesi'nin, zemini bütünüyle mezar taşları ile kaplı şapellerinden birinde bernt notke'nin ünlü danse macabre tablosu sergileniyor. hele de sabahın erken saatlerinde oradaysanız, yalnızlığınızla başbaşa kalma ihtimali kuvvetli; atmosfer daha da etkileyici oluyor.

kiliseden çkışta, tam karşısındaki kitapçıya uğrayabilirsiniz; eski yeni, her konuda raflar dolusu kitap, çok makul fiyatlara sizi bekliyor..

 

berliner theatertreffen'den üç oyunu online izleyebilirsiniz..

geçen yıl çek yönetmen dušan david pařízek'in schauspielhaus düsseldorf'da sahnelediği üç yapıtı izlemiştim; üçü de çok çok iyiydi. bu oyunlar hakkındaki izlenimlerimi merak edenler bloguma veya teb oyun dergisinin 22. sayısına bakabilirler..

dušan david pařízek bu yıl viyana'da burg theater'da "apocalype now"dan uyarladığı "die laecherliche finsternis" adlı oyunla büyük ses getirdi; ödüller aldı; almanca konuşan ülkelerin tiyatrolarının o sezonki en iyilerinin buluştuğu prestijli festival berliner theatertreffen'e davet edildi.

3sat.online sitesinden, bu oyunla birlikte yine berliner theatertreffen'e katılmış, karin henkel'in deutschen schauspielhaus hamburg'da yönettiği ibsen'in ülkemizde pek sahnelenmeyen oyunu "john gabriel borkman"ı ve yael ronen'in maxim gorki theater'da sahnelediği yugoslavya'daki savaş hakkındaki özgün projesi "common ground"ı izlemeniz mümkün.

tavsiye ederim..

The Choreographer in the Purgatorio: Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui - Part II

This interview with Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui was made on the 2nd of May 2015 at the Cemal Reşit Rey Concert Hall in Istanbul, Turkey.  

Redaction: Ayşe Draz

[Bu metnin Türkçe versiyonu TEB Oyun Dergisi'nin önümüzdeki sayısında yayınlanacaktır.]

 Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui

(Photo: Koen Broos)

I saw “Play” last night and founded it very a personal and intimate piece. It seems to me as if you don’t set any bounds to yourself or to the piece, as if you didn’t felt any pressure how it will be received by the critics or by the producers. Why am I saying that? Because first of all I heard a song from a Disney-animation “Aladdin”: “The Whole New World”. I know that you like Kate Bush very much but “The Whole New World” is really..

Very far.

And also the movements, the choreography is like a summary of your dance carrier; there is tango, tap, hip-hop, jazz, flamenco, oriental. As if you and Shantala Shivalingappa brought your backgrounds to the piece. As if you feel free to do what you wanted...

It’s thanks to being on stage with Shantala that I’m so free. Shantala wanted to make a positive piece. I was like, oh God how we gonna do this, only positive. But it was very good that she said this to me. She said: I don’t want to go there because it’s not necessary, we can stay with each other on this and this level. So it was about teasing each other but always was like a competition of intelligence. We, even chess; chess is a very difficult. and games; sometimes people say games are easy; no, games are very difficult, very difficult to play good. We are constantly try to challenge each other; playing piano, playing with puppets… And every time we are adding on a challenge to each other and seeing how it would react. 
It’s true that from the dance background there are moments that I’ll pull her in a direction and she’ll pull me in her direction. She bring the Indian mudras and hand gestures and I would work with hips and to do my style what I learned when I was a child, and to see how you learn to dance with me. And so what we were trying to do is making a dialogue in movement and it’s true, it’s based on our backgrounds, but it feels freedom that we provoke in each other. 
It’s thanks to her that I can do this. If I would make a solo, it would be different. I would put another frame. But the frame was bigger because of Shantala and because this dialogue the frame was actually a more theatrical frame. So even we are dancing we are playing; it’s still acting between us. So we are acting different ways of moving; sometimes very contemporary, sometimes very either oriental or we go into something very like Kuchipudi Southern Indian dance. It was a way for us to talk.

And the song is the same; when thinking about Shantala and me, oh we look like Aladdin and Jasmin. So I said may be I’m the Arab prince and I put you on my carpet to go and then we also do it with irony, because the lyrics says “open my eyes” but we are blindfolded, we don't see anything; also there is always a second layer for ourselves between each other.

And the last thing is about happiness. This kind of Disney movies, I remember when I was a kid, it made me happy, but I didn’t understand where it was pushing the elements of happiness or pleasure or was it about that make me happy and then there is the analysis she does; Shantala explains the difference between happiness and pleasure and practice being happy, which I think is very interesting. And I think the song which is like a joke, but it also make people smile. Also when I dance with someone from the audience, I can feel it’s really, people go like, “ooo it’s so easy and yeh, this is life”; it is very easy actually, if we just take the time to meet and so this is the point of the text after; the text explains what we just did. Otherwise I’ll not go to Broadway, I’m not good enough for Broadway.  

 Play

(Photo: Koen Broos)

The idea of  “doppelgänger” is very evident in all your pieces. There is always another self, another individual, another ego in your protagonists. You are realizing this idea with different mediums; sometimes with puppets (as in “Apocrifu”), usually by means of playing with shadows (Zero Degrees, Dunas), also by mirroring/shadowing people by others (as in “Zero Degrees). What fascinates you, why are you so interested in the “other”?

At times for myself; it was because I don’t always like myself. And then you try to be someone else, you try to find another person, because you think “may be if I do like her, I’ll change”, so it’s also about self image. I think, now after I’m 39 I feel better. I always had difficulty, and one of the reason why I dance like other people I wanna to be like other people, I don’t want to be myself, I wanna be like this or like that and so I was constantly tried to be like them and it’s always fails never became like that. But then I keep on trying. And eventually you start feeding yourself with elements of this people you imitate, they become you and you become them. So the idea of “doppelgänger” becomes like two imitation; you do learn to become like another person. And it’s like a baby, you know; I remember the kids of my brother, you wave them and they wave you back, they are already using the doppelgänger, they already mimicking you because they feel “I just do the same to acknowledge that I saw you do this to me” and this way of waving he will probably carry at the rest of his life. Because this is what I gave, and he gave back but he already kept. And I think, if you think like this you can learn anything, you can learn to play piano, just by looking and by imitating.

But I come from a generation of students of dance, we were taught not to imitate, we were taught you have to find your own style, you have to do your own thing. But I think it’s dangerous when you don't go through the stages of imitation before you find your own way. Imitation is not negative. But sometimes we are teaching people too fast to not imitate.

What happened for me when I was student and people said “don’t do this” and “don’t do that”, I said “but I liked this”, “ok, don’t do” but “I liked this”. After a while nothing is left of what you liked. Because may be what you like is somewhere out there already. I remember I saw Pina at work and I said “this is what I wanted to do”. “no you can not do, she does arms, you can not do arms”. And I said “why not?”, “because, this is Pina”, and I said “but I’m sure Pina wouldn’t mind” and I met her and asked her “can I do arms?” and she said “of course” and everything is ok. Because you get to a point where you are upset by the people around telling you not to do certain things that actually you probably need to do. You probably just need to try. And that’s why, now when people are imitating my work, I’m flattered and I’m like “it’s ok as long as eventually you do your thing, but if you need to go through this, fine.” I mean I’m flattered and I’m really happy to inspire you to do something. But then it will change, it will change with time. I know that my own work came from being inspired by other people.

You also use people as puppets which are governed/manipulated by other people (as in “In memoriam”, “Dunas”, “Apocrifu”) It seems that you are very interested in the person dominated by another person/religion/power.

Manipulated by some sort of invisible factors in our lives. We are behaving but there are some certain strings making us do what we do.

And I think since “Foi” I’m trying to address these strings; what are these strings? In “Myth” they are more the shadow in your head. It was like you can see the manipulator but you can not touch him. But he can make you do things, it’s a dark side of you. Or the other side, the one you are not showing, whatever you are not; Jung. I’m doing this and there is inside me doing the opposite. And this shadow element is important.

In “Babel” with Damien Jalet we spoke about virtual identity like facebook, twitter, all this things that you are pretending to, you make a constellation or a some sort of identity for yourself on virtual plane. You type and you do, and this is you. But it’s of course not you; it’s a construction of you. And to this construction people react on it, and that makes you think differently about yourself. All day long we are constantly suffering from some sort of schizophrenia, and it’s something that I try to address in performances.

In “Play” there is a moment where I do play Shantala as a puppet and later myself and also I try to cut the cords, to see what’s left if you take all influence what is left. We don’t know, maybe it’s energy or something or another influence. May be we have to live through the influences everything around us.

And at the end of “Apocrifu”…

it become heavier and heavier to carry yourself. “Apocrifu” is a very sad piece, because it’s really about acceptance of like; if you listen to everything around you, if you listen to the books and if you listen to the politics, you have to die. Because you don’t belong. 
I mean ideologies and dogmas are made to destroy you. I mean they are not made to offer you any salvation. You need do hara-kiri or to throw yourself from a window because you don’t belong and because none of us are strong, enough perfect and enough to fit into the framework that has been given by the religions. I mean this was my take on it, ok, if I need to be all this then I have to kill myself because there is nothing left. This was the end of “Apocrifu”. It’s very tragic.

It’s just theatre…

In one of the interviews you said that “the ones which are between things are better than the pure ones”. And in all your pieces are dealing with “dualities”, “intra cultures”.  After terrible killings of Charlie Hebdo, regarding the atmosphere of despair about foreigners, immigrants and rise of the right wing in the West/Europe; your way of looking at things (at religion, at power, at repression) becomes much more important and crucial. What is being like to live, to produce work, to take position in a post Charlie Hebdo reality?

I think I’m from a generation who reconcile things, tries to put things together so that even think they I’m trying to find a way that there is dialogue possible. And it’s very utopic and very naïve for some people, but I think it’s only way because the only other way is to take position and once you take position you’re in a constant battle. Which is eventually going to destroy more than it’s going to construct.

So I think contamination is really important, the reason I do the Ballet of Flanders because I’m a Arab, it’s because I’m from contemporary dance, it’s because all the things in my life put me in this place that I was requested to do this, and I said ok, I’ll do it and I know what it will hopefully...

It’s very interesting because the opera director is Jewish. So in Antwerp we have a Jewish opera director and an Arab ballet director working side by side and developing a vision for this opera house. I think it’s important political message. And so I tried to think in these terms trying to set by example and seeing how I can in some way take responsibility, very small responsibility who I’m and this body can do, and then I try to set like seeds that hopefully will grow in certain things. And the way I get my energy from the people like Shaolin temple or people like Shantala, she is incredible, very smart, really attentive and really good person, and I surround myself with people that are really positive, because I’m actually a very dark person, really. I just try to play positive, because I know it’s so hard and it is the biggest challenge in my life to think positive. As long as I know this dark side but there is a desire for light, there is a desire for positiveness, that I hope it’s stronger then any kind of impulse to negativity.

But these are difficult times and I think that rebels are very important, I think I have to be on the verge of construction, I need to be more homoepathic, the only way for me to find a way is to connect to dots. By sometimes talking to the people may be, some people say “don’t talk to them” but this is the people we need to talk to. We have a lot of not extreme right but right wing in Flanders, and I have lots of opinions about what they have been doing wrong but I also think, I need to address, step by step we need to stay in a dialogue, because it’s the only way to make them turn their own vision. Because if not, you are in a constant black and white situation. It’s not constructive.

You have intense pieces (duos like “Zero degrees”, “Dunas”, “Play”, trios like “Apocrifu, quartet “D’avant”) which I call “chamber-choreographies” like chamber music or chamber theater. You are working also with big ballet companies like Monte-Carlo, Geneve, Goteburg. You are working with people with different backgrounds and sometimes you are working with classical dancers and contemporary dancers in the same piece. How do you manage to cope with this plurality?
It’s not something I manage, it is something I need; I need that. Otherwise I would get so bored if I was all the time with the same type of people I’ll go crazy. Because I work with ballet dancers, and then when I work back with contemporary dancers, there is another appreciation for contemporary dancers. And the other way round; when I’m working with contemporary dancers I come back to the ballet dancers, its like holiday. Because suddenly they think differently and they have another way of; so I can change my way because they are different.

So I think I need this diversity. It’s not something that I suffer from. It’s something that makes my life interesting. I would really really find it hard if I constantly in the same context. This is the one thing that can kill me is going in the same, having the routine; I need this diversity. So I’m always happy when I work with a different company. For example recently I did something with three dancers from L.A. Dance Project, and it was very exciting because very strong, good, beautiful dancers. And then I come back to do something with students in London which was 38 students and contemporary dancers, I was really like waw this is so fresh, different energy, different.. Three dancers were beautiful, elegant but it was just three people, but then I have 38 people and I can do a lot of other things. So it was also for me very healthy to go between this and that. It keeps it exciting for me.

In a lot of pieces you worked with a dramaturge. But in some of your recent pieces, you didn’t work with a dramaturge. How do you decide to work with a dramaturge or not?

I prefer, I really like to work with a dramaturge. For instance, in “Shell Shock” I worked with Ruth Little because it was such a big work and she is incredible into advising me to go into certain directions or listen to certain things; we were looking up certain things. I prefer when I have the possibility. Sometimes the time is too short, sometimes it’s also finding the right person for the project... And it’s also the finances; it’s expensive.

Sometimes the people say “you can dance, why do you need”, but it’s important to have this feedback, and it’s important to feel, you know, like a team. It’s very very healthy, so I can advise every choreographer to develop things with different dramaturges; I think it’s also really important to change.  And may be you find someone you like forever, but in the beginning it’s also good to try to find your voice and relationship to the function of the dramaturge. If you know how to work together, it’s very exciting for you, also for the dramaturge. It is really fascinating.

Ruth Little has worked with Akram Khan, then she worked with me, and I know it’s very different, also the result that comes out is also very different.

In “Babel” you worked with Fahrettin Yarkın as musical counselor. And in one part there is the rhythm of the tariqah rituals, ziqr. And one of part of the “In memoriam” the choreography seems like inspired by the whirling dervishes. Do you think of making collaboration or working with a Turkish company or Turkish artists?

It would be wonderful, it would be very very exciting. I think I need to understand much more all the different communities in Istanbul or in Turkey in general. When we meet with Fahrettin we came with Damien and we meet many different musicians in Turkey. And it was very exciting because we went to gypsies neighborhood where they are playing and then we went to a place where there was a one man talking and everybody was sitting down and listening to, like some sort of almost like a guru, but not guru, somebody like a person who has the wisdom that people come for and later their will be a dervish evening; so it was very fascinating.

When I came here, it was back in 2009, I was really intrigued by the different elements; it's the elements that I don’t know could be  together. I grew up with Morocco and I grew up with Belgium and I grew up with certain things that are divided; here in Istanbul it’s incredibly rich; of course for you, it’s your culture but for me it’s look like a patchwork of a lot of elements; it’s very very colorful and very powerful. I think it needs a bit more research before you can anything meaningful; I need to put it together a little bit more. But I’ll be very open, I mean some friends, dancers also from Turkey and I find it very powerful culture; because it’s like European but it’s not, and it’s Arabic but it’s not at all, you know I mean, that the Islam that is here, the way it is lived is so different from the Islam I’m used to it in Morocco or Islam in Bangladesh, Islam in India. There is a lot more to discover. And also it was fascinating yesterday, the Day of Labor here; the political impact and also the relationship to the president or to what ever, is very powerful; I have more questions than answers. I’m really fascinated by it. May be and probably one day, I think something will definitely come.

What I’m doing I’m definitely keep on researching Sufism. For me this is something to develop deeper, to understand Sufism, because I believe in movement and I think in one of the Islam’s that I have learned, because I did some research around it but I’m not a scholar, but there is different layers of Islam and one of them is Ahsan. Ahsan is really devotion in a physical way to god. It means dancing for spiritual connection with the divine, and I think that this is very interesting for me because it’s above Islam; so actually it is more important than Islam; to be physically connected to god and I think this says everything about contemporary dance or any form of dance as being, even in a religious context, especially the religion, I’m talking about the people that follow this religion, has been trying to push away the body and push away the movement. Actually it is important to say that it is the base of your religion is the movement. And to come back to this I would like to eventually get to this, may be something I do when I’m 50. I need a wide kind of mind frame and the right people around to push me in this direction. It is too early but it is definitely something that I’m very attracted to experiment and explore.

 Myth

(Photo: Koen Broos)

In most of your pieces, you use live music; mostly traditional music, medieval songs. The dancers are even singing, also you sing during the performance;

and also the singers became part of your choreography, sometimes they dance also (as in “Foi”, “Myth”, “Tempus fugit”). Would you please explain this passion of yours to singing?

I think that this is just another way of expressing yourself. When I was a child I was a frustrated musician. I wanted to be a musician but because I was not so good in the coordination with the instrument I was better with my body, I ended up with the dance. But still a part of me always wants to go back to the music. I think that the voice is a choreography, I mean when you are using your pallet and your throat, it’s a movement, it’s a dance if you do this choreography correctly you can create sound and you can sing and everybody can sing.

What I like most about singing is more than singing alone is the harmonies which is very difficult but really beautiful when it works. I’m most interested in harmonizing with other and finding a voice that is in tune with someone else’s voice and I think for me singing was more about singing with someone than singing alone. Singing alone came later. In the beginning of my career when I started to use voice in 2000, like 15 years ago, I was always singing with other people. In “D’avant” with Juan, Damien and Luke it was all about finding our voices in tune with each other; and it’s very fragile, it doesn't work all the time but this was the work, is to try, to tune into each other. And when it does work, it is very very beautiful. That’s kind of like what I keep on being interested in singing because I can sing with another voice and especially when it is not with the same but when we are harmonizing, so when it is a quintet, quartet or trio; like different intervals, if then you can find each other, I think, the feeling is incredible.

Do you think of making a choreography for Stravinski’s “Le sacre du printemps”?

May be one day, yes… Again, one of these things; we recently did “Bolero” with Damien Jalet in Opera National de Paris. 

We saw it in Paris.

Oh, you went to Paris, great. Which day did you go? On the premiere or one of the ten shows? Did you see James danced, because one of our dancers had to jump in, the blond dancer? Because one of them is injured and he jumped in, and think but it must have been beautiful, but I didn’t see also.

It was very nice for us to work on this theme and also to work with Marina Abromovic, it was a very funny experience. And I would like to do this again, one day.

Giving some time, I think, it’s nice not too fast and to soon…

Also may be Gluck’s “Orpheus and Eurydice”?

There is lots of things that I think now I’m working with the opera house would be interesting to …

It would a nice opportunity for you..

to explore that part.. 
I was against it, you know, when I began my career as a choreographer I never do the classics ever, I never gonna do the Swan Lake; and now with time, hmm ok. But I just wanna do it differently. So for example with “Bolero” it was important, the one of Béjart is one dancer and everybody around. And Damien and I, no, we want to really everybody equally importance and finding, may be one person has solo but around him just as interesting as stars. And because in French we say “l’étoile” like the star of ballet. So we said ok, you are an l’étoile but he also an l’étoile and you have to be like in the sky. Everybody shines the same. Stars are next to each other, so if you are a real star, you know that there is other stars. They understood the concept and they dance but it was very difficult for them because they used to have more focus on them, so suddenly it became it could be you, and you, and you. And it was also less enough to understand the concept of shining. If you really shine you don’t worry about somebody else’s shining; if you really shining, you are happy. But if you think that you shine less. This is a kind of thing we are very allergic to. Damien and me, we are very much trying to create something more democratic, but it is not easy in the ballet world, but we try.

So may be “Le sacre” one day…

You should do it.

I promise one day…

 Le cap des tempêtes (1945)

René Magritte

One last thing; When I was in Antwerp to watch “Myth” six years ago, I also visited Fine Arts Museum and I saw there a painting of René Magritte: “Le cap des tempêtes”. I don't know if you know it.

I don't know it. Oh, waw. Yeh, like “Sutra”…

As if you or Antony Gormley must have been inspired by this painting in the working process of “Sutra”.

No, no… but it is very very suprising, interesting. I should send it to him. He’ll like it also...

That’s all, thank you very much.

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to read the first part of the interview

The Choreographer in the Purgatorio: Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui - Part I

This interview with Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui was made on the 2nd of May at the Cemal Reşit Rey Concert Hall in Istanbul, Turkey.  

Redaction: Ayşe Draz

[Bu metnin Türkçe versiyonu TEB Oyun Dergisi'nin önümüzdeki sayısında yayınlanacaktır.]

Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui

(Photo: Koen Broos)

First of all congratulations; recently you became the artistic director of the Royal Ballet Flanders.

I’ll start in September. So in January I said yes to the request. I have been thinking about it for six months; because they have been looking for a new director, because it’s my home town and I felt I know some of the dancers also, and I felt that this was a good moment in my life to try in engage in this kind of a responsibility.

I think it is a rare example that a choreographer who has his own company, directs a national company at the same time.

There are other people; Benjamin Millipied and also Wayne McGregor from Random Dance; he works very often with the Royal Ballet. So, I think it is two different, let’s say, entities that can manifest different parts of what you want to create as a choreographer and but also as a performer.

I’m not going dance for Royal Ballett Flanders; I dance with my own structure with my own company. It is a very personal environment, very contemporary; also where dancers are musicians or may be actors and it doesn't matter as long as we create something that has a sense of purpose for ourselves and hopefully can mean something for other people. 
But it is very different the role of an artistic director for a ballet company; it’s very much like to find a direction that it can take, finding other choreographers that could be interesting for them to meet, thinking about repertory.

Ballet of Flanders comes actually from the lady who made the Ballet of Flanders, Jeanne Brabants in the sixties. She was actually a modern choreographer; she wasn’t classical, so the company has gone towards the classical but it actually came from very modern roots. And I’m very happy to come back now; from a modern perspective and try and approach the history differently and even we may go back in time (and we might show) how modern it actually was and not how classical. This is my take on the company and some people will agree and some will disagree, but this is also interesting; the whole conversation is very interesting because it is so easy to divide classical from contemporary, from this from that and I think that what I try to do in my life is kind of like to look at things from a perspective of what can we do together, how can we develop something positive together.

Actually, my next question was related to that; will you take radical decisions like the time when Pina Bausch became the head of Wuppertal Ballet in 1974; but now I understand that this is a different situation/case?

Yes for some people what I do will be radical, for others it will be not radical enough; it depends on who you are. Because what I try to do is to be homoepathic in my approach to change, because I know how sharp changes work but also there is lot that you work against. I try to be very very subtle. Also it’s not like I’m against point shoe; I worked with these and I’m very comfortable actually. So, I’m trying to think how to work with the dancers I have now there and what can we do together. And this is not so radical; but for some other people, because I didn’t do the ballet school because I didn't do the certain education that is theirs, it is very radical what I do.

Even the fact that I’m half Moroccan and I have an Arab name, for some people in Flanders, it is very radical. Even just because who I’m.  So all of these depends on who you talking to to see whether radical or not. I try to be very sensitive, but for some it is still very radical.

In the next season’s program of Royal Ballets Flanders there are the Nutcracker and the Sleeping Beauty and also two new pieces of you. I assume that your mark will be perceived more clearly in the following years?

I think so too, yes. We are trying to develop, already thinking ahead. Also, I’m sharing the artistic directorship with Tamas Moricz, who is a Hungarian dancer, very good dance teacher, who has worked with Forstyhe for a very long time, then did the dance material of Jiří Kylián and of Mats Ek, so someone very complementary to me. I have my way and he comes from his angle and I think that the two of us could do together.

He’s also ten years older than me, so it’s nice to have someone a bit ahead and at the same time he really follows my vision, because he’s like “you’re the choreographer and thinker in this” and he trusts me; so I think it’s a very good dialogue I have with him. He also helps me to translate to the dancers; so most of the things are at the end of the day is also a chemical reaction, everything is a chemical reaction.

So yes, a lot will be my responsibility and direction but it’s also how things will speak to me, and how this happens, this will also make me define the future. It’s always listening and talking and listening and talking...

We know that Belgian government cut off the cultural funds…

Some of it, yes…

Even the most distinguished opera company in Belgium, La Monnaie was effected by this policy. They canceled this season some of the dance productions, yours 'Babel' too. Actually La Monnaie has the tradition of supporting dance since Béjart.

Very much, yes…

And now, you become the head of a national company. What do you think of this policy?
La Monnaie is going through a very very very difficult time. And it needs to reorganize its own priorities. And it’s been trying to do on a level very very high, and so, they were not counting on the cut.

The problem with the budget cuts, I think but it’s my personal opinion, is that it never is the cut that’s the problem, it is the timing. If you already planned to do this and then they cut you, you are in a middle of a situation. If you are prepared that you will have to go down, then you can organize yourself better.

I think the sad story with La Monnaie, it was not prepared for the cut it was getting and it did not think ahead and %20 is huge; I mean every percentage is big for an organization who is already trying to do work at the limit. And all this money; it goes to carpenters, it goes to the people cleaning the spaces, it goes to everybody except the artists sometimes. So, it’s the money they take away form people and La Monnaie has been very faithful to its orchestra, very faithful to its choir, very faithful to its house, and so for them, presenting dance was the extra, and was the only thing that they can take off; and also because they thought we will survive, because we are strong enough. And of course we are strong but not so strong. So it’s also very very hard. Now we’re talking again with La Monnaie to see what we can do together, it’s an ongoing process, but it was a very unfortunate way of what happened and then how La Monnaie had to react, all this was very tragic.

Babel 

(Photo: Koen Broos)

For this season they announced “Babel” and canceled it...
But we are performing “Babel” in Brussels. We are losing a lot of money but are faithful anyway. We are performing it in Les Halles de Schaerbeek. So bring all your friends because we have to sell out completely to come out of our cost because even then we lose money but I said to my company: “we can not not perform in Brussels after five years, this is a nice anniversary” and “I understand what La Monnaie’s problem is and then we still need to do it”.

Les Halles de Schaerbeek were so kind us to give us their space but then we had to finance a lot of it by ourselves. La Monnaie is still helping us a bit; it’s not that they have completely took away responsibility, it’s just not taking what they were supposed to do but that is life.

In the next season you will use the music of Arvo Pärt. How do you start to work, why did you choose his music?

Like so many people I’m a big fan of his music. It has been some may be 25 years since someone did something meaningful about his music. So it was also for me a nice way of; I felt like that this is a good moment in my life to finally touch upon music that I already adored when I was 17 years old; we are talking of something 22 years ago and I already wanted to do something with his music but so many choreographers did things that I didn’t touch it. Now I feel that it’s a good moment to bring it back because it’s no so many people touch his music anymore.

Why do I like it, because it’s very mystical, there is something extremely, almost sense of spirituality in his music, very minimalistic. So, I’m coming from the Flemish culture, there is this relationship to Anne Teresa de Keersmaeker and Steve Reich, but even Steve Reich was influenced by Arvo Pärt, even he is a big fan of Arvo Pärt. So, I like sometimes to go to the sources of my sources; if there is Steve Reich then I go like what was he listening to, that was actually Arvo Pärt. I felt it is a nice way for me to go to his music and I’m hoping that the audience will also enjoy it.

I can perform it because I’m connected to the opera house (Opera of Flanders); Aviel Chan has been so kind us to lend us a part of his orchestra to do this. The house has limits but also a lot of potential. If we find an interesting way to collaborate with the orchestra and choir of the opera house, we can do fantastic projects. With my own company developing something around Arvo Pärt will cost a lot of money, bringing the musicians, so on; but in the Ballet of Flanders I can work together with the opera house and the orchestra is right there. It’s much more natural to do this.

Actually in may Robert Wilson will make a piece with the music of Arvo Pärt, “Adam’s Passion”.

Yes, I heard, I saw, where are they performing?

In Tallinn, Estonia. I’m planning to watch it in Tallinn, I hope.

You have to tell me how it will go. Yes, I want to see it actually. I think I’m very curious. And I think Arvo is also one of the composers who is still alive and still doing things; it’s very fascinating…

Five years ago, Istanbul Foundation for Arts and Culture gave him Lifetime Achievement Award and during the music festival there was the world premiere of his new piece commissioned by the IKSV.

 Shell Shock

(Photo: Filip van Roe)

Relating to your answer of collaboration with the Opera of Flanders; You worked with theatre directors, especially with Guy Cassiers; and created choreographies for theatre pieces like “Intermezzo”, “Adam’s Apple”, “House of Sleeping Beauties” and also for three Wagner opera’s: “Götterdammerung”, “Siegfried” and “Rheingold”. At the beginning of this season you directed and choreographed an opera for the first time: Shell Shock. How was this experience?

La Monnaie asked me to direct an opera for a long time. I felt I was ready to commit to music that was chosen from beginning to end. 
Normally the way I work is a bit like Pina; I still have discussions with the musicians if this is the better music and I would change music very last minute sometimes when I felt it was more correct for the flow of emotions. This is something in opera you cannot do. You really work with this piece of music and you have to keep the music and you have to respond as a director on the music that is already directing everything. 

It was a very interesting exercise because it was Nicolas Lens and he knew my work. He was thinking in a very diverse way; the music he was making even though very contemporary has a lot of flavours from all over the world. So I could see parts influenced by one culture, parts influenced by another and the theme of the opera really interested me; something like a mythtological image of it.

Then doing research; kind of like looking up onto what happened in that, how this First World War came about was so interesting and what happened to the people. 
Nicolas and also Nick Cave who did libretto; what they wanted to do is really write about the victims of war, what they think, what goes through their heads and it’s very crazy how Nick Cave went about it. It was almost like lyrics of a CD that he would never publish because it was all given to the pieces of music of Nicolas Lens.

Then when I read the stories I was trying to see who is singing this, who is singing that, how this characters may come together. It was a lot of topics which are very interesting like “the colonial soldier”. We very often speak of European soldier but very rarely about all the soldiers coming from other countries to fight at war of Europe. I thought that is fascinating that Nick Cave began with this and he addressed topics that were much more controversial in terms of what we usually hear.

I wanted to do something: the lyrics was so dark, the music was so dark, everything was very dark and when I was talking with the creators they all think that everything has to be dark. So I said I think I need white and very colorful. Because then there is more tragic, more dark when we have more color; when we go dark, everything becomes for an hour and a half, you just don’t hold but if it’s very colorful then it feels like you go somewhere; then you can go to a place of black and white, of darkness, of shadows, later during the journey. 
I related to the soldiers a lot; I mean before the First World War there was a big leap of technology, so before, soldiers were very colorful; they were so proud. If you see in Turkey or in Greece, like you see the costumes, its really really beautiful, and they are so proud to combat. Also the weapons were; may be if you did a shot you had in one minute, you can may be do two shoots, so it’s not so dangerous, I mean you have a shoot, you miss, you have to wait and then you shoot may be one; the risk of you getting shoot is much more smaller than when you have. And then in the First World War suddenly weapons could twenty bullets in a minute, so suddenly like I could shoot one two three four five, I’m sure that it’ll hit you. All this people who were very colorful, they were like became easy targets. The whole color had to change, so suddenly their costumes, instead of being blue and red and white, it all became khaki, green and brown. And the whole atmosphere of soldier had to go in the ground, so they had to disappear, had to become invisible. That’s where the whole structure of going into the ground is contemporary dance for me, because classical dancer is always up, but contemporary dancer is always floor, and so is this evolution of the soldier who is so proud who suddenly becomes so crawling.

I thought that it was correct to do this with ten contemporary dancers and the opera singers next to them it was a very interesting contrast, so I was very happy that La Monnaie trusted me and that also Nick Cave and Nicolas Lens said ok, they let me do. Of course every time I wish I would have more time. Because then I think I can change this and this and this.

Having worked with Guy Cassiers, having worked with other people like Alain Platel before, has taught me a lot; it gave me a lot of tools to be able to juggle the different roles because between directing the choir and directing the dancers and directing the singers, it’s a lot of work, and it was always like finding. I had very good assistants, so I could tell him you do this, I do that, you do that and it all comes together.

                  

Actually about this dark and melancholic atmosphere of your pieces; I only watched 17 pieces of you, not all of them…

It is more than most people..

Especially in your earlier pieces like “Foi”, “Myth”, “Apocrifu”, “D'Avant”, “Origine”; even there are funny and hilarious scenes in them, in general they have compelling, melancholic, dark atmospheres, and also sometimes even disturbing scenes.  For example; in “Myth” when the drag queen insults the girl with mental illness, the audience was shocked and reacted so severely. Or in “Origine” there is this grey mannequin in black costume, watching all the performance from the side of the stage. And we saw this black puppet also last night in “Play”.

It was the same one. He comes from there.

This time he is also part of the game.

Yes this time he is inside. Because he was witnessing “Origine” and we never got him to play inside and then when we make “Play”, the first thing I said is “I’m finally pulling him in”, because I wanted him in “Origine” but I couldn’t find a place and he ended up on the side but now I got him in.

After “Sutra” your works became lighter; not in a sense of quality, but in a sense of easing off, relaxing may be..

Yes..

Sutra

(Photo: Hugo Glendinning)

And one more thing: in “Foi” and “Myth” for example; these are very dense and sophisticated pieces; lots of things happening on the stage at the same time simultaneously. It’s really hard to watch everything. I used to watch your pieces and Pina Bausch’s pieces two times. As for “Myth”, I’m very happy to watch it two times because first night I watched the overall picture and on the second night I focused on details. Comparing with these, “Sutra”, “Milonga” or “Puzzle” have a very simple structure. These are like Mies van der Rohe’s famous axiom: “Less is more”.

Yes, it’s true. I think there was a big shift in my way of thinking after “Sutra”. I went to the Shaolin temple almost to move away from choreography. I really needed a break. I felt not always understood, you know, like the typical artist they always complain but I felt like, I didn’t feel like that I was trying to put so much in and then people never saw everything, and I thought but it is there and there, so then the people say “too much”, so I was like ok, I need a break.

With the Shaolin monks it was great because working with them they would literally ask me when we rehearse and at some point they didn’t show up the next day and I said “why are you not coming to rehearsal?” and they said “yes, but we rehearsed yesterday”, and I said “yes, but we have to rehearse every day, because it has to be very good, for the audience and…” and they asked “why?” and I said “because it’s important”, but “why?” Well, and I suddenly had to explain why to make art, what is art, how to make art, why we do this, why we do that. It was very very healthy for me to have people who want to do something with me but also ask why, all the time, like the children, why this why that. I had to explain why this is low and quiet, but they said “we want to move”, I said “yes I know but you move after five minutes, stay quiet then come out it is more strong.” The world became very minimalistic because it had to have this kind of logic, I couldn’t do much together then it would be chaos. So I had to do one thing at the time. It was very interesting, the result was very positive.

So I felt may be I have to quiet down, do a little less, doesn’t mean that I don’t want to make work like “Myth” anymore; I still have this part of me who wants to put it all together, but there is another part I need to take it easier and give the space to people to follow me and then may be later can I put it back together or something. It’s more like sketches; you can draw only pencil or you can draw with all the colors and you can do. It doesn’t mean that one drawing is better than the other, it just a different philosophy.

Also my life after 2007, I was less dark inside. I mean the Shaolin temple really made me smile. It broke away from the art world. But then it made me love the art world more. Because then I saw, I don’t have to try and fit in the art world, I can be just be myself, sometimes I’m part of it, sometimes not, but if I’m not part of it, it’s not breaking my identity; it’s just, sometimes I’m in, sometimes I’m out, and the Shaolin monks, because they didn’t care about the art world. I mean they really don’t. They don’t care. They care about Budism, they care about kung-fu, they care about good food and then stay strong and the temple and this is it, you know, very simple. And so, it was fascinating for me to go back to basics and essential.

It’s true for a lot of artists, sometimes we change. And also Pina, in the beginning her work was much much more tormented. She became a happier person towards the end; “Bamboo Blues” and all these pieces are much more joyful. It’s strange for us because we ask where is her pain; it’s still there, but it’s more in a different way and may be she feels this time she needs also to convey that she is happy.
Happiness is difficult; real happiness is very very difficult; pain you can always pretend because you know so well; it’s so easy to go back to: this is not good, life is horrible; because pain is everywhere, all the time; you look around and you see pain, so to have happiness is very very complicated and I think at some point when you grow older you start to think either to go more bitter or you try to go and find lightness; but lightness with roots, this is something I think I’m still looking for.